Curse

Hanuman li Tosh · Oct 17, 2005, 03:13 PM // 15:13

rofl i cant even believe someone debated that. wow. point being is some people are willing to go waaaaaaay out of their way to be stupid. ill stop posting about it now and go hone my common sense (by not posting about it anymore).

Sekkira · Oct 17, 2005, 03:21 PM // 15:21

"I don't have a head, will you run me for free?"
"Sure"

Or lets put it in a better context.

"I don't have a head"
"lol"
"Will you run me for free?"
"Okay."

Dax · Oct 17, 2005, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanuman li Tosh

rofl i cant even believe someone debated that. wow. point being is some people are willing to go waaaaaaay out of their way to be stupid. ill stop posting about it now and go hone my common sense (by not posting about it anymore).

Hahah, nice I guess that's far easier far than trying to explain your reasoning, because you can't.

I'm beginning to understand why people feel the need to run.

mm00re · Oct 17, 2005, 04:59 PM // 16:59

I do run people all the time and I do it for tips only and I will also run my guildmates for free. Most have completed the game but in my opinion it is really none of my business if anyone I run has completed the game.

Does a taxi driver ever ask you if you have a drivers license? or if you have a birth certificate to prove how old you are?

Occasionally there are some people that don't tip and get a great run for free, I don't necessarily make the run because I am in need of the money and the ones that don't want to tip I still have the satisfaction of knowing that I can make that run and they couldn't.

Runners provide a service to those that want/can afford it. I socialize with the people I run with and by the end I usually have someone that wants to add me to their friends list, I entertain and joke while running and turn it into a fun event.

I am not the game nazi and it is not my business what other people do or how they play.

Hanuman li Tosh · Oct 17, 2005, 10:54 PM // 22:54

[QUOTE=Dax]Hahah, nice I guess that's far easier far than trying to explain your reasoning, because you can't.
i was being sarcastic about the head part, i was being serious about the part where OP took time IRL to spite someone who never wronged him in game.

Dax · Oct 18, 2005, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanuman li Tosh

Hahah, nice I guess that's far easier far than trying to explain your reasoning, because you can't.
i was being sarcastic about the head part, i was being serious about the part where OP took time IRL to spite someone who never wronged him in game.

Well, I'm glad you responded, and the fact that you weren't serious about the head.

The OP if he would have been nice about it he could have given him the money, but let's put it another way:

If he had said "look I don't have a lot of gold would you run me for free" and the runner said "sure" then demanded money we would be having a completely different conversation.

I really have little pity for the runner as I think that running is a crappy way to make money. So if the guy was stupid enough to say yes then so be it.

Venus · Oct 18, 2005, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by mm00re

I do run people all the time and I do it for tips only and I will also run my guildmates for free. Most have completed the game but in my opinion it is really none of my business if anyone I run has completed the game.

Does a taxi driver ever ask you if you have a drivers license? or if you have a birth certificate to prove how old you are?

Occasionally there are some people that don't tip and get a great run for free, I don't necessarily make the run because I am in need of the money and the ones that don't want to tip I still have the satisfaction of knowing that I can make that run and they couldn't.

Runners provide a service to those that want/can afford it. I socialize with the people I run with and by the end I usually have someone that wants to add me to their friends list, I entertain and joke while running and turn it into a fun event.

I am not the game nazi and it is not my business what other people do or how they play.

Amen!

I completely agree.

Why should the runner care what people are doing? It dosnt make sense. I think it is silly when people think that their opinion about the game should apply to everyone.. and everyone who dosnt think like them is automatically a "noob"

I seriosly think that the real "noob" players are the ones who make up those silly rules (in their heads).

Dax · Oct 18, 2005, 01:11 AM // 01:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Venus

Why should the runner care what people are doing? It dosnt make sense. I think it is silly when people think that their opinion about the game should apply to everyone.. and everyone who dosnt think like them is automatically a "noob"

That's why they are opinions and nothing more, tis a shame when people can't respect that. No one's telling anyone how to play.

ShadowNife · Oct 18, 2005, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Dax:

1. While it is allowable, paying someone to run while you die and be dragged is hardly what I imagine the developers had in mind. [Later quote: But, for myself I have nothing against runners. I have a problem with people in the group being drug through by dying. If a runner and party can make it through alive together ...my hats off.]

- I'm not sure if that is exactly what the developers had in mind, but they must have at least realized this would happen and are ok with it. They have explicitly stated that they are fine with the concept of people being run, and in this game how else would you be run? If you suggest that you have to make it to the end in order to zone, that kind of kills the purpose of running don't you think? If your entire group makes it through, why would you pay one specific person? The idea of running is to arrive somewhere fast without having to go through all the mobs etc. , so if possible please explain how you can be run and not have the option of dying and being taken through. The idea of everyone making it through kills the purpose of having a runner since it would be the same as fighting through without him/her, no?

2. Please name me a successful MMORPG that lets you wear end game armor at a low level. There are reasons for everything and running seems to be a way to appease people who don't want to take the time. A new player who wants to play through has a immediate perception of dissadvantage, especially when they use the low level arenas. I know you might say that Arenas in PvE don't mean anything but as a first time player it may be their first experience.

- Someone else has named the MMORPG so I'll let that rest. You are right in that running is to appease people who don't want to take the time, or in many cases, don't have the time. However, I'm not sure if admitting that leads anywhere in terms of disproving running as a viable part of this game. In terms of having a disadvantage of in low level arena, though I don't think this should be a reason to drastically overhaul the game, I agree that is a problem. However, I again emphasize that removing runners and the act of running should not be the way to solve this because it would remove an important feature. Rather I think we propose a lvl requirement for the armors that can be used in certain arenas and skills that correspond with how far in the game you can reasonably advance at a certain level. That basically excludes elites from all the low leveled arenas and should keep it fair.

3. Runners cause a need for gold, which causes people to go to ebay for money. [pretty sure thats what you said, correct me if I'm wrong]

- I think it's a bit of stretch to say that newbies would turn to ebay for running money. All runs basically are under 2K at MAX, with Drok's run now being around 4K. Being that the lowest amount I see is 100K on ebay (just did a quick search), I don't think many people will turn to ebay for this. Again from talking to people ingame, they buy the gold BEFORE they even activate their key to jumpstart their account. This means they buy the gold before they know about running, meaning this ebaying goes on whether or not running is present.

4. So by that logic the game would suck if you couldn't run? I play the game through because that's the way the game was designed. If the game was designed so people could run (which is different than just allowing people to do it) the game would suck. Since we live in society and we have to deal with people, drugs can be damaging because it affects lots of people. Same with running- If it was a single players experience I'd say go for it, but since it affects other people (being a MMO, atleast it should) it's not ok.

-No the game wouldn't suck if I couldn't run, I merely stated that running has maximized my enjoyment. I would still have fun without running, but running allows me to skip the boring ascalon areas if I so choose to.
- The game was designed to include runners, the devs themselves said they aren't against it and it is an integrated part of the game, so yes the game was designed this way. I'm also not sure what distinction there is between if people could run and allowing them to do it in the context of this discussion.

- I would agree with your drug example if there weren't certain differences. First in society, most of the people you deal with are people you will see again, often times repeatedly. In Guild Wars, most people you interact with will not see you again or even remember you after your once instance (of course you make friends etc, but those are special cases). In real life you can't just ignore someone who is doing drugs or offering drugs to you, but in Guild Wars it is possible. People who are run or runners basically have no detrimental interaction with you unless you choose to. In real life, there is no ignore command to screen out people you don't like. In essence, complaining about people who were run in Guild Wars is parallel to complaining about drugs when you decide to hang around them all day and be their friends. In both, you reap the detriments that your choices brought you.

5. Yea, it seems to me if Anet really put running in they would have put some sort of mechanism for a secure transfer. Sorry being sorta sarcastic, but in this case the runner made alot assumptions and said he'd run for free.

- I don't agree with the idea that in order for Anet to support running they would add a secure transfer. That's similar to saying Anet doesnt support trading because of the crappy trade system. Either situation is somewhat rediculous to say that beacuse they have implemented features that condone running such as the entire group zoning etc. that they could have easily excluded to weed out running.

6. Hicarumba, really? I agree it's a fun game and all, but its got more exploits and holes than most games. Then again maybe that's why it's fun.

- Mind pointing out these obvious exploits and holes? I'm not contesting it, I am honestly just wondering what you consider exploits and holes in Guild Wars =P

Mimi Miyagi:

1. It's almost impossible to get a group together to do Elona's Reach.

- I assumed that the topic here is running from a location to location, not through an actual mission. I do not condone people being run through missions, on that subject I agree with you guys.

Since this discussion has once again turned back to the action described by the OP:

From a technical standpoint, many of you argued that the runner agreed to run for free. If I'm not mistaken, it was under the condition of "having no head." Since the OP does have a head, I'd say he technically was scammed. True, it's logical that he has a head and the runner would have said no, but logically speaking why would a runner who just advertised to run for 1500 run for free without any other given reason other than "i have no head"? I'm not reallly contesting this, just saying the idea of using this technical loophole as justification doesnt really work.

Whether or not it is scamming aside, I think the OP is a bad person for doing what he did. As Hanuman li Tosh said, he went out of his way to rip of a runner to a location he has already been. That's pretty low and there is no way to really justify that besides malicious intentions.

Dax · Oct 18, 2005, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowNife

From a technical standpoint, many of you argued that the runner agreed to run for free. If I'm not mistaken, it was under the condition of "having no head." Since the OP does have a head, I'd say he technically was scammed. True, it's logical that he has a head and the runner would have said no, but logically speaking why would a runner who just advertised to run for 1500 run for free without any other given reason other than "i have no head"? I'm not reallly contesting this, just saying the idea of using this technical loophole as justification doesnt really work.

He said "I don't have a head will you run me for free?", not "If I don't have a head will you run me for free?" I assume he saw the person had a head, he should have said NO. So, technically he wasn't scammed. I don't see what's so difficult, if he said NO he could have saved himself grief. It wasn't a trick question.

You are right if defies logic that the person didn't have a head. The only reasonable thing I can think of is that the person thought he was joking and assumed he'd pay. But that's not the fault of anyone except the runner.

Dax · Oct 18, 2005, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Sorry if this is a double post, I will consider myself in the doghouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowNife

Dax:
- I'm not sure if that is exactly what the developers had in mind, but they must have at least realized this would happen and are ok with it. They have explicitly stated that they are fine with the concept of people being run, and in this game how else would you be run? If you suggest that you have to make it to the end in order to zone, that kind of kills the purpose of running don't you think? If your entire group makes it through, why would you pay one specific person? The idea of running is to arrive somewhere fast without having to go through all the mobs etc. , so if possible please explain how you can be run and not have the option of dying and being taken through. The idea of everyone making it through kills the purpose of having a runner since it would be the same as fighting through without him/her, no?

The running isn't the problem, IMHO as I have said. Getting someone to someone to run while you die so you can be dragged from point to point is just a allowable exploit. It isn't to get there as fast as possible, it's a cheap way of making it to a point you couldn't make in regular gameplay. In FFXI people charge to teleport, but you can't be teleported to a place you haven't been to atleast once to get the crystal for that teleport pad. And if you couldn' exploit the dying/rezzing at the next zone, it does kill the purpose of a runner thats the point. If a runner wants to race with other runners, or a challenge, that's totally cool.

It should also be pointed out that they also said if it unfairly affected gameplay especially in low levels they would address it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowNife

Someone else has named the MMORPG so I'll let that rest. You are right in that running is to appease people who don't want to take the time, or in many cases, don't have the time. However, I'm not sure if admitting that leads anywhere in terms of disproving running as a viable part of this game. In terms of having a disadvantage of in low level arena, though I don't think this should be a reason to drastically overhaul the game, I agree that is a problem. However, I again emphasize that removing runners and the act of running should not be the way to solve this because it would remove an important feature. Rather I think we propose a lvl requirement for the armors that can be used in certain arenas and skills that correspond with how far in the game you can reasonably advance at a certain level. That basically excludes elites from all the low leveled arenas and should keep it fair.

You are right, evidently someone did point out a MMO that doesn't. But it has done right wih many hugely popular games. Still I would turn the question around and say would people pay to run if they put a level requirement on items like armor? Would it make it a disadvantage for people who already played the game through and know what to do?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowNife

3. Runners cause a need for gold, which causes people to go to ebay for money. [pretty sure thats what you said, correct me if I'm wrong]

- I think it's a bit of stretch to say that newbies would turn to ebay for running money. All runs basically are under 2K at MAX, with Drok's run now being around 4K. Being that the lowest amount I see is 100K on ebay (just did a quick search), I don't think many people will turn to ebay for this. Again from talking to people ingame, they buy the gold BEFORE they even activate their key to jumpstart their account. This means they buy the gold before they know about running, meaning this ebaying goes on whether or not running is present.

I think I said that it promotes buying gold, not that it's the end result. Buying gold is a jumpstart (as you say) just like running is for some people. Given the oppertunity and the perception that it's really important to have this or that armor if you want to compete in PvP alot of people will take it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowNife

4. So by that logic the game would suck if you couldn't run?
-No the game wouldn't suck if I couldn't run, I merely stated that running has maximized my enjoyment. I would still have fun without running, but running allows me to skip the boring ascalon areas if I so choose to.
- The game was designed to include runners, the devs themselves said they aren't against it and it is an integrated part of the game, so yes the game was designed this way. I'm also not sure what distinction there is between if people could run and allowing them to do it in the context of this discussion.

Somewhat taken out of context and I don't really wanna go back and try to figure it all out, but once again the devs did also say that if it was unfair it's not ok to do. It has been argued that its integral to people who have to go though multiple times, but how much control does anyone have over that. And just my opinion mind you, if rushing through parts of the game makes it more enjoyable, that doesn't say much for the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowNife

Yea, it seems to me if Anet really put running in they would have put some sort of mechanism for a secure transfer. Sorry being sorta sarcastic, but in this case the runner made alot assumptions and said he'd run for free.

- I don't agree with the idea that in order for Anet to support running they would add a secure transfer. That's similar to saying Anet doesnt support trading because of the crappy trade system. Either situation is somewhat rediculous to say that beacuse they have implemented features that condone running such as the entire group zoning etc. that they could have easily excluded to weed out running.

Hence the sarcasm, but they do have a trade button. And yes you said it they do have a crappy trade/selling system.

Sekkira · Oct 18, 2005, 05:27 AM // 05:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by mm00re

Does a taxi driver ever ask you if you have a drivers license? or if you have a birth certificate to prove how old you are?

No, but people who take taxis aren't teaming up with people to do missions which require teamwork to complete. They're going to work or something or going to the airport to get a plane to their holiday/business destination.

Sagius Truthbarron · Oct 18, 2005, 07:14 AM // 07:14

*Pays runner through all the giberish in between the end of Page 1 to the end of Page 5*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

No, but people who take taxis aren't teaming up with people to do missions which require teamwork to complete.

Yeah.. They're just going down a highway at 70+ miles-per-hour with about 500 people behind them: of course they don't need expireince in driving for that!

Believe me, if you ever met my mother you would know that people who get others to take them everywhere they aren't competent enough to drive on a highway without extensive re-training

I get ran for classes that I know how to play. I had already pretty good training making with an elementalists. Having done all the elementalist specific quests with my W/E, and doing them atleast 4 times with other people, and having a sharp memory, I - knowing every detail of those quests - was reluctant of facing the bordom of doing those over again, alone. I got ran for both my elementalists that I deleted after getting the skills I wanted to unlock.

I unlocked all of my Necro skills through PvP. Is this being "ran" becuase I didn't spend 2 months leveling a necro to 20? The necromancer isn't very hard to play. Most people who have a hard time playing with more than one class are either on drugs, very stupid, or they are just a very casual gamer.

I made a PvE necromancer. Did I run that necro? No. I use it to play with my friend; besides, the necro is rather fun to play.

I made a PvE ranger. Am I going to run it? No. I am lacking in experience for the ranger, it's rather different from all the other classes.

Do I have any desire to ever make a PvE elementalist and play through all the missions and quests again? No thanks. 7 times is my limit for most things that are long and tedious. Will I ever run one again? Not unless I have 7+ dedicated players helping me.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's talk about seemingly skilless players. I remember when I was a wee Paladin. I never got ran anywhere, but I still wasn't that good. Mainly for the lack of skills ingame (especially a ressurect spell untill you are well into Kryta) this was probably my skillbar untill I got Devastating Hammer: Mighty Blow, Weakening Blow (Or whatever that Weakness enducing skill is), Heavy Blow, Purge Conditions, Orison of Healing, Remove Hex, Vengeance.

My command tactics and my Italian inherited speciality in inspiring and intemedating others might have made up for my lack in playing knowledge. Still, though, the only time I was only ever ran to the Dunes of Despare; and that, even, was for lack of people willing to fight there.

I was actually spammed insults in chat by people yelling "JUST GET RAN THERE, IT"S ALOT EASIER!" I hardly ever used henchmen, unless to make up for a real person that our team couldn't get. I completed 97% of the game all with real people. Not once do I recall taking a full henchmen team into the game. I was bound to go with people, but if I couldn't - only one time - I was ran to the place I needed to get to, and at that time the Dunes of Despare were pretty much the only places that had runners.

Woah.. I completely forgot where I was going with this.. Must be late. O.O

I don't want to delete all this time I spent gabering so uh, woo!

mm00re · Oct 18, 2005, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

No, but people who take taxis aren't teaming up with people to do missions which require teamwork to complete. They're going to work or something or going to the airport to get a plane to their holiday/business destination.

and?

Do you never talk to the people you party with to see what they are like before entering a mission? Ask them what skills they are bringing so that you can make sure your skills compliment the others skills instead of hindering them?

I can decide if a group is the people i want to join up with and i have the ability to leave or kick someone from my group if i think they may be a problem.

Running has nothing to do with your ability to pick your team mates, if you can't tell if someone is experienced or even have the brains to ask the team how many have done the mission before then the blame lies on you not the runners.

Dax · Oct 18, 2005, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by mm00re

and?

Do you never talk to the people you party with to see what they are like before entering a mission? Ask them what skills they are bringing so that you can make sure your skills compliment the others skills instead of hindering them?

I can decide if a group is the people i want to join up with and i have the ability to leave or kick someone from my group if i think they may be a problem.

Running has nothing to do with your ability to pick your team mates, if you can't tell if someone is experienced or even have the brains to ask the team how many have done the mission before then the blame lies on you not the runners.

Real life examples make bad in-game compariasons. I'm not exactly sure how a taxi service (from your previous post) can be compared with running. I belive the point was that alot of people concede that newbies should not be run, but it's ok for experienced players who are unlocking skills. From what I gather, you really don't care either way.

A taxi driver doesn't need to ask for a info because it's irrelevent. On a completely unrelated note about groups, if you have the ability to pick your teammates, why don't you extend that ability to someione to be run?.... because you don't want to. It's as simple as that.

What I got out of Sekkira's post is that because this game is community based it does matter, as opposed to a taxi driver who job it is just to drive people to a destination. As an example what if I'm told that I can't get into a party because I don't have a certain kind of gear? Or I invite someone who was rushed and doesn't have the proper skills?.....While yes I could ask them, what's to say they are less than honest? Atleast it would be a level playing field if there wasn't people doing it.

mm00re · Oct 18, 2005, 04:56 PM // 16:56

If i post that I am running to beacons or to lions arch and someone wants to go but does not even know where those places are it is not even likely that i will add them to my run.

They are more than likely new players and i can very easily tell them that they need to play a little farther in the game and they will learn about the story line, but i can and often do offer them advice, etc.

I have a habbit of talking to the people that I run while i am doing it and asking them if they need any tips or how far along they are or whatever, i make it a fun experience and have never gotten a bad remark from anyone i have run.

There are a lot of runners that suck and are in it for only one reason, $$, half the time the die numerous times or are just pure scammers and then there are those of us that enjoy the challenge, enjoy the company and enjoy having a good time.

yes you can ask players that join your group what skills they have and you can do it quite nicely as not to offend them or make them even act dishonestly, i do it all the time.

I consider it a good idea to know at least who has been there before and it can go a lot easier if i know this ahead of time and can help lead them along, i am sure at one time you did not know what skills to use in a specific area of the game.

If 2 rangers are in your group doing hell's precipice do you ever ask if one of them is bringing winter? if not then why? or a necro if he is blood or a battery/minion master?

I love bringing my monk to help out friends doing thunderhead keep mission, and i love it when you get a warrior saying to kick the mesmer or ranger or for that matter even the ele from the group before we start because the warrior would be the first person i would kick if they don't understand how vital a role that these different characters can play.

To me bad players stay that way because nobody is willing to show them how to play their character better or why they are failing to become a better player.

Some of them become good players when shown why they should use a certain skill however you can't always get some to listen and those will be the one's standing at thk spamming "tank lfg, know the mission, will listen i promise" while i am taking the group i was in that just arrived through perdition rock.

Dax · Oct 19, 2005, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by mm00re

If i post that I am running to beacons or to lions arch and someone wants to go but does not even know where those places are it is not even likely that i will add them to my run............

...and the point is what? If they make it worth your while in gold you'll say 'no' too? You just do it because you're nice?

I've read through the post and I'm curious. I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

mm00re · Oct 19, 2005, 01:30 AM // 01:30

That people will complain no matter if a person was run or not. If they were ran they are a stupid noob, if they played and are just a bad player they are stupid noob, if they get a group of 8 and only had 1 healer and none of the other players brought any kind of self healing then monk is a newb.

People never consider that their own actions may have possibly put them in a losing situation before checking out who they are playing with in the first place.

Yes i have turned down people to be ran, no it's not because i am being "nice" it's just common sense, if someone does not even know what or where the destination is they probably don't have any business being there in the first place.

If you don't like playing with other people who just might be new to the game or can't even ask some simple questions of the people you will be playing with you have nobody to blame but yourself if the mission fails.

Stop blaming runners for other peoples misgivings.

Dax · Oct 19, 2005, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by mm00re

Stop blaming runners for other peoples misgivings.

I'm not blaming runners, I think it's wrong to run other people by dragging them that's all. It's not a matter of misgivings. Whether you do it for free out of the goodness of your heart or charge makes no difference. If you and your little running buddies wanna run fine by me.

And to the OP he wasn't scamming, even if I think its wrong or not.

Fenix Swiftblade · Oct 19, 2005, 05:34 AM // 05:34

Please stop debating the issue of whether the OP scammed or not. The runner inferred something that wasn't implied, and agreed to run the OP for free. The two parts of the sentence were seperate thoughts. "I have no head, will you run me for free?" There is no 'if' joining the two thoughts. The first statement is false, but that does nothing to the meaning of the question follwing it. The runner answered the question "Will you run me for free" in the affirmative. The OP, through shrewd wording and ethically shady actions got the runner to agree to a free run, therefore, was entitled to a free run.

On the subject of running, I think running itself is a part of the game and needs to be dealt with as such. What I mean here is, there are definitly problems that occur because of running, but that these problems should be solved seperatly, not just wiped out by removing the option of running. Among other things, a filter for low level arenas for armor and elite skills (or just having been to Droknar's Forge).

I would have to say though, it is extremely likely that the developers did in fact intend for and facilitate being dragged through an area by a runner. With party zoning, the connection between between Droknars and Beacons, the ability to warp to any town that you have been to are all examples of how the game is designed to facilitate running through areas.

I would like to pose a question here though.

It has come to my attention that it is theoretically possible to get a party of 8 to the quest "The Last Day Dawns" For a group to do this in the traditional manner (i.e. fighting their way there) it would take several hours. However, a runner could get to the nearest zone in just under an hour and a half.
What is everyone's opinion on someone running a group of 7 to this quest?